render help. times and other questions?

Questions, bugs, help for Twilight Render V2 Hobby and Professional
djcyph
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:29 am

render help. times and other questions?

Post by djcyph » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:33 pm

Still kinda new to rendering/SU and have some questions.

I have 2019 MBP i9, 32g ram. I'm assuming that's enough for decent render speeds since twilight uses CPU from what I understand?

Most my renders are going to be interior with minimal room lighting and just effect lighting like color uplights, club lighting from moving heads (spots with volumetrics) and emmitter light from LED video walls and other things.

Now, unfortunately after wasting 7 hours on a progressive render lol, I know that volumetrics only works on easy 01-7 from what I'm reading. Is that still the case? Lots of these tutorials I'm reading are old. What about the advanced presets? I can only find a thread on easy presets. Any master list anywhere on what they do and what to use?

With the type of renders I'm describing what preset would you recommend? Def need volumetrics, emmitters and spots. For my current project, I'm doing High+ and I probably have 13 uplights as one component copied (is that correct way to do it since all same color?), 8 color spots, one big "fake emitter" for led wall, 3 small stage spots, a semi shiny dance floor material, some aluminum materials, tile floor, wall material and a few pieces of furniture with leather material. That will be average size of my projects. Is that considered big? I know there is a bunch of different factors, but how long do you think a render should be with that and my computer specs? Just looking for basic timeline like 4-7 hours? Should it be under 4? I'm asking because I know if you do something wrong it could drastically increase render times. Also, does darker take longer? Also saw a thread where more light is usually quicker?

I made sure to read the pre-render check list and reversed faces when needed, made sure lights didn't intersect geometry, purged unused etc..For now, I've been doing Low preset at first at low resolution and if that only takes 1-3 minutes, I figure I'm good. When Low starts going up I look for issues.

Lastly, for the project above render that is currently going. It's been just about 2hours on high+ and it looks the same as it did like 20-30 minutes in. Is that normal? Will it update at some point? I'm wondering if there's an issue and if I should stop. I usually render overnight so not sure about how the process is and how the GUI updates as it goes. It looked good for the Low preset render.

Sorry for the long thread. I appreciate any help. I can upload my skp somewhere too if someone is willing to help.

Thanks

Chris
Posts: 5105
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:00 am
OS: Win10
SketchUp: 2016

Re: render help. times and other questions?

Post by Chris » Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:24 pm

I'm sure Fletch can chime in with some better information but for at least some of the easier questions:

- Yes, Interior / Interior+ don't render volumetrics well because they are missing the scatter component. This is still unfortunately true.
- Yes, darker will always take longer to render than lighter.
- Your RAM should certainly be sufficient. Render speed, however, is more dependent on the type of your CPU, the number of cores, and the CPU clock speed.
- Starting with Low to verify the render before bumping it up is a good idea. And who knows, the quality might be good enough at that level.
- A significant amount of time in High is spent anti-aliasing. During that time you likely won't see any difference in your image until it is complete.

Fletch
Posts: 11289
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:41 pm
OS: PC 64bit
SketchUp: 2013-20
Contact:

Re: render help. times and other questions?

Post by Fletch » Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:02 pm

djcyph wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:33 pm Still kinda new to rendering/SU and have some questions.
:welcome:
djcyph wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:33 pm I have 2019 MBP i9, 32g ram. I'm assuming that's enough for decent render speeds since twilight uses CPU from what I understand?
:^:
djcyph wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:33 pm Most my renders are going to be interior with minimal room lighting and just effect lighting like color uplights, club lighting from moving heads (spots with volumetrics) and emmitter light from LED video walls and other things.

Now, unfortunately after wasting 7 hours on a progressive render lol, I know that volumetrics only works on easy 01-7 from what I'm reading. Is that still the case?
Sorry for your time waste. :( That's frustrating for sure.
djcyph wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:33 pm Lots of these tutorials I'm reading are old. What about the advanced presets? I can only find a thread on easy presets. Any master list anywhere on what they do and what to use?
Even if they are old, the basics of how the engine still remain. We are building the car (Twilight Render Plugin), but the engine (Kerkythea) is still the same.
The advanced settings are described sort of one-by-one in this video.
djcyph wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:33 pm With the type of renders I'm describing what preset would you recommend? Def need volumetrics, emmitters and spots. For my current project, I'm doing High+ and I probably have 13 uplights as one component copied (is that correct way to do it since all same color?), 8 color spots, one big "fake emitter" for led wall, 3 small stage spots, a semi shiny dance floor material, some aluminum materials, tile floor, wall material and a few pieces of furniture with leather material. That will be average size of my projects. Is that considered big? I know there is a bunch of different factors, but how long do you think a render should be with that and my computer specs? Just looking for basic timeline like 4-7 hours? Should it be under 4? I'm asking because I know if you do something wrong it could drastically increase render times. Also, does darker take longer? Also saw a thread where more light is usually quicker?
Set your emitters to "Fake" and add spots or projector lights near the emitting surface to cast light and make up for the "fake" part.
Then render with Easy 04 at first... it's the best "value" setting (quality for render time) - if you still need higher quality settings you will likely need to learn to create your own render settings.
Subject: Twilight V2: Edit Any Render Setting #editrendersetting
Subject: How to Modify Twilight Render Setting
Image

The Easy render presets were created with typical architectural renderings in mind. Your situation is unique. What you may end up doing, since you have a pretty nice machine, is render on Easy 09 to get the benefit of light emitting materials and highest quality overall. Then render a second version for the volumetrics with Easy 04, then overlay the 2 images in photoshop setting the volumetric lighting layer Blend mode to "overlay" or "lighten" and adjust the Levels in that rendered volumetric image to "pop" the volumetrics effects. This would be how I would approach it, personally.
djcyph wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:33 pm I made sure to read the pre-render check list and reversed faces when needed, made sure lights didn't intersect geometry, purged unused etc..For now, I've been doing Low preset at first at low resolution and if that only takes 1-3 minutes, I figure I'm good. When Low starts going up I look for issues.
:^:
djcyph wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:33 pm Lastly, for the project above render that is currently going. It's been just about 2hours on high+ and it looks the same as it did like 20-30 minutes in. Is that normal? Will it update at some point? I'm wondering if there's an issue and if I should stop. I usually render overnight so not sure about how the process is and how the GUI updates as it goes. It looked good for the Low preset render.
High would not be good for your situation - it was made for an "average" architectural interior rendering with about 10 lights max. See above.
djcyph wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:33 pm Sorry for the long thread. I appreciate any help. I can upload my skp somewhere too if someone is willing to help.
Feel free to share a private download link to the .skp file and other textures which may be required to my private messages to get further more accurate diagnosis. We can also attempt to create a decent render setting for your situation.
Subject: Lights - render times...

djcyph
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:29 am

Re: render help. times and other questions?

Post by djcyph » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:08 pm

This is some great info guys, love the photoshop layering advice! I made the renders below from before got your responses. Two are high + with different post processing and the other one is under Alternative_AA medium + (high) because I believe I saw it used in another volumetrics thread (labeled in files names). I do think medium one is my favorite so far besides I moved/added stage the white stage lights that are showing up the back wall a little for some reason. I like elements from each. All of these were 5-7 hours each with medium quickest I believe.

I'll send you a link to the .skp. A custom render preset would be amazing! Is the render times normal for my file? Anything wrong? I'll make sure to review all the attached videos and links as well before next render.

Also, for emtting, when I do medium and raise light in post, the tubes turn more white instead of blue. Any suggestions to keep the blue? I saw what you mean about fake emitter and putting light source near. As you'll see in the file, I didn't put any light source for the tubes or LED wall and the light/emmitt fine. I tried the red material of the exit sign and wouldn't work for some reason. Do I have to add a light only for certain materials?
Thanks!
Attachments
alternatvie AA_5b medium +.jpg
alternatvie AA_5b medium +.jpg (795.89 KiB) Viewed 1748 times
easy high + brighter post.jpg
easy high + brighter post.jpg (794.91 KiB) Viewed 1748 times
easy high + reg.jpg
easy high + reg.jpg (679.63 KiB) Viewed 1748 times

Fletch
Posts: 11289
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:41 pm
OS: PC 64bit
SketchUp: 2013-20
Contact:

Re: render help. times and other questions?

Post by Fletch » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:42 am

You can pack a scene with the external images to share by going to Render Dialog choosing File>Save To Zip.

If I remember correctly emitter materials applied to .png image files do not work with this type of volumetrics technique. So avoid that. Emitter materials on .png files with Easy 09 work splendidly.

If you are rendering only still images, I would 100% render two versions like mentioned before - one in Easy09, and one in Easy04b alternative AA (or even better, custom optimized faster setting) and overlay the volumetrics from the Easy4 version... combined with using the FastForward plugin on the rendered images (25% off sale at the moment!) will give you great results on your machine relatively quickly. Basically in my testing I find it reduces render times with Easy09 by half or even 2/3. This can be even better if you are overlaying with Easy04 because if you have a bit of blurring in the the Easy09 image the quality may be compensated a bit with the Easy04 overlay.

We will look at your file and try to see if we can give any other tips.

To keep your light blue in post-pro, use a mask and mask out the brightness on the areas you wish to retain the blue, or use photoshop to add the blue back where needed. This is easy if you know photoshop well. Piximperfect is a great youtube channel for the very best Photoshop tutorials.

Fletch
Posts: 11289
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:41 pm
OS: PC 64bit
SketchUp: 2013-20
Contact:

Re: render help. times and other questions?

Post by Fletch » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:49 am

Fake emit materials render instantaneously in Medium render setting. They also are automatically converted to True emitters when you render with Easy 09. Volumetrics take a long time to calculate.

Emitter materials will emit lights in Easy1-7 (PMFG) render settings, that's not the problem. They do increase rendering times. Each light emitting triangle is considered as a light source. So your exit sign is probably read by the Easy04 render setting as being something like 30 lights?! (wild guess) This is why if you set it to "Fake" emit, it will get the look of glowing without actually trying to calculate any light. Your tubes are the same deal... greatly slowing down Easy04 render setting. This is why I suggested adding a spot or projector light in to "replace the lost light" from the emitter material being set to "fake". If you need to to actually emit light into the space. If the emit material is there (as in the case of the exit sign) just to "appear lit from the inside" then Fake emit is sufficient without adding back the light using spots or projector lights.

I hope this is clear? :totgm:

Fletch
Posts: 11289
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:41 pm
OS: PC 64bit
SketchUp: 2013-20
Contact:

Re: render help. times and other questions?

Post by Fletch » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:09 am

First of all, as in any render engine I've ever tried, Volumetrics simply take a lot of time to calculate. That said, there may be things we can do to speed things up, keeping in mind that there is always a balance or trade-off of quality to time.
You can try the setting attached below, but there are many parameters one could tweak to speed it up more, please feel free to play with it.

go to Extensions>Twilight v2>Diagnostic
in the Diagnostic Report dialog go to Diagnostic pull-down menu
run full diagnostic, it will show how many lights you have in the scene, in your case, 29. But this does NOT include any light emitting surfaces.

Your exit sign does not have an emitter material applied to it. :oops:

For emitters - scroll down in Diagnostic and see which mats have emitter templates have been applied.

Example:
Your material "asterat tube emissive" on the light tubes is an emitter, so each of the 25 rectangular faces on the tubes is considered as 2 triangular light sources, therefore each tube is considered by the engine as 50 lights. 6 tubes equals 300 light sources. But it's easier to set that material to "Fake" emit. Which you have. So, problem solved.

If you desire to edit the render preset to shoot many less photons per light, it will save render time. But be potentially of lower quality. See attached for quick video of how I did for your case, but also read this thread:
Subject: Easy 1-7 Photon Mapping and Final Gather (Biased)

It will be darker scene, but much faster if you turn off final gather completely, that is set Value=0 for

You have the "Dance Facktory" image inserted where it is z-fighting with adjacent geometry - this will slow the rendering as the engine does error correction for all light in every pixel in that area. Move the image away from adjacent surfaces by a centimeter/half inch.
Attachments
RenderSetting.gif
RenderSetting.gif (1.86 MiB) Viewed 1740 times
final gather disabled is dark, but quick.
final gather disabled is dark, but quick.
Untitled-2.jpg (134.38 KiB) Viewed 1740 times
00.LotsOfLights.xml.zip
unzip to your folder C:\ProgramData\TwilightV2\RenderSettings
(1.45 KiB) Downloaded 46 times

djcyph
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:29 am

Re: render help. times and other questions?

Post by djcyph » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:20 am

Thank you that really helps!

do you mind taking a look at this small project. Still having trouble with emitter. I added a texture and I painted an emitter on the back and I'm not getting any light....I tried putting a spot inside the wall too at one point and nothing.
Attachments
photo booth test.zip
(842.34 KiB) Downloaded 58 times

Fletch
Posts: 11289
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:41 pm
OS: PC 64bit
SketchUp: 2013-20
Contact:

Re: render help. times and other questions?

Post by Fletch » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:59 pm

so, I neglected to mention you may need to drop the .skp file in the zip file.
Please share again with the .skp file. :hat:

djcyph
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:29 am

Re: render help. times and other questions?

Post by djcyph » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:21 pm

Fletch wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:59 pm so, I neglected to mention you may need to drop the .skp file in the zip file.
Please share again with the .skp file. :hat:
opps...here you go, I think I understand a little better now and the surface I was referring to was being lit by fake emitter but now have another question with emitters...

This file has those astera tubes from the other project. In explore render when I do normal emitter prelim, the glo/neon effect looks amazing on the tubes and only takes a few minutes to see! It's exactly what I need. When I try to render out on medium the render takes hours, which I think I understand from your previous post is because of the 26 connected faces each being considered a light source. My question is, is there anyway to make them one face? I tried researching and saw an extension called cleanup3 but it doesn't seem to be merging them. I hit edit component, right click, click select then connected faces and then try to merge faces in cleanup3 and nothing changes. Again, I'm still learning so maybe I don't understand connected faces? Or is it something with layers? I really haven't explored that yet.

If there's no way to merge them to speed up the render, do you mind showing me in the project how to add a light inside with fake emitter to try to get the same effect as a real emitter? I made a really small light and tried putting it inside before and couldn't get anything, I'm pretty sure it wasn't intersecting with other geometry. Or is there a way to put a transparent face tube on the astera kinda like volumetrics and apply real emitter? Or are all tubes made up of multiple faces. Sorry if that's so basic of a question but when we tried implementing these renders for work, I didn't have an opportunity to learn everything from a 101 perspective but will go back soon and review more.


Really really appreciate you're awesome customer service and help!
Attachments
photo booth test2.zip
(1.41 MiB) Downloaded 55 times

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests